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5 statistics that should (but won’t) end Eagles quarterback debate

Oct 14, 2013, 3:02 PM EDT

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The trendy stat of the day for Michael Vick supporters, Nick Foles detractors, and fence-sitters everywhere: opponents’ record. The opponents in games Vick has started and “finished” (technically he was pulled from the Denver game, but the result was not in question) are 15-7. The record of the two teams Foles has beaten is 0-11.

To which I beg, “STOP!!!” Please, stop it. Never mind the Tampa Bay Bucs had a top 10 defense entering Week 6. That’s not really the point, is it?

I doubt anybody believes these two wins suddenly anoint Nick Foles a franchise quarterback, that they serve as any indication he’ll lead the Eagles to a Super Bowl someday. On the contrary, it doesn’t prove anything about his future at all. We’re talking about right now, who looks like the best quarterback on the roster?

The answer is less about Foles than it is about Vick. Doesn’t the offense just run more smoothly without Vick in the game? Not literally running the football obviously—Vick has 307 yards on the ground himself after all—but are they not more efficient overall? Because the numbers indicate that is indeed the case.

One person in the media explained to me that Vick adds another dimension to the offense, and I actually agree—if that dimension is negative plays and missed opportunities. There’s fewer of each when Foles is under center.

I’m quite certain that wasn’t what that person meant. Regardless, it’s the truth. For just about any measure of efficiency we have, Foles is going to chart as far superior, or at least close. And as a reminder, we’re talking about a second-year pro with seven career starts versus an 11-year veteran with 107 starts. One of these two players actually has a chance to improve.

Basic measures of passer efficiency

These numbers came up yesterday, so I won’t spend too much time harping on them, but they bear repeating.

Foles is completing 67.2 percent of his passes this season, Vick 53.8. To put that in simple terms everybody can quantify, if both quarterbacks drop back 30 times, Vick is completing 16 to Foles’ 20. That’s not an insignificant number. Those four incomplete passes might be the difference between keeping four separate drives alive.

This is not something that has ever or will ever be Vick’s strong suit. The four-time Pro Bowler has completed 59.4 percent since coming to Philly. Earlier this season, he admitted he would like to be at 60. As it stands now, Vick is ranked 32nd out of 35 quarterbacks in completion percentage, but even at 60.0 he would only be 18th. That’s not ideal.

Rounding out the efficiency side of things is passer rating, which is the formula that measures the efficiency of passes attempted taking into account completions, yards, touchdowns, and interceptions. Vick is 13th with a 90.6—not bad by any means—but Foles’ 127.9 would rank second behind only Peyton Manning if he had the snaps to qualify.

Scoring/red zone efficiency

We all understand there are ways to massage statistics to build a case for one player over another. Completion percentage and passer rating admittedly don’t take into account Vick’s production as a ball carrier.

Fine, but what could be purer than the number of points an offense puts on the scoreboard under a particular signal-caller?

With three touchdown passes and one on the ground, Foles’ four touchdowns against Tampa Bay were more than the Eagles posted over the previous three games combined under Vick. (If the argument here is quality of opponents, I guess the implication is Vick is not expected to lead scoring drives against good teams?) If you look at the bodies of work over the entire 2013 season, Philadelphia reached the end zone 11 times in roughly 17 quarters with Vick under center compared to seven times in seven quarters with Foles.

Where the difference becomes even more readily apparent though is inside the red zone. CSN’s Reuben Frank wrote an excellent piece on this very subject last week that detailed how Foles has been more productive once the field shrinks—albeit in a limited sample size.

Over the past two years, Vick is 26 for 65 in the red zone for 195 yards with 10 touchdowns, two interceptions and a 74.7 passer rating.

Foles during the same span is 15 for 36 for 91 yards with six TDs, no interceptions and an 88.9 passer rating.

If I may update Roob’s findings, Foles is now 18 for 40 117 yards with eight TDs, no interceptions and a 91.7 passer rating. In 2013, the Eagles are 5 for 14 (35.7%) in the red zone under Vick, 4 for 7 (57.1%) under Foles.

And much like Vick’s low completion percentage, there is history here. In his 28 starts going back to 2011, Vick has committed 12 turnovers in the red zone. How many games does that figure alone cost the Eagles? In what world is that ever acceptable?

Sack %

People typically mean two things when they say Vick adds another dimension. The first one obviously is the threat of No. 7 running with the football.

Well just as completion percentage and passer rating don’t measure rushing yards, neither one measures sacks either, an area where Vick has routinely ranked among the league leaders. The 11-year veteran’s career sack percentage—8.65 percent of all dropbacks—leads all current NFL starters, and only David Carr’s for the Giants is worse among active players.

And if you think all sacks are entirely the fault of the offensive line, consider Vick is the league leader at time holding the ball in the pocket—3.4 seconds on average—according to the metrics site Pro Football Focus. Still, don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Football Outsiders Almanac writes in its introductory chapter every year.

As for pass protection, some quarterbacks have better instincts for the rush than others, and are thus better at getting out of trouble by moving around in the pocket or throwing the ball away. Others will hesitate, hold onto the ball too long, and lose yardage over and over.

Note that “moving around in the pocket” does not necessarily mean “scrambling.” In fact, a scrambling quarterback will often take more sacks than a pocket quarterback, because while he’s running around trying to make something happen, a defensive lineman will catch up with him.

So this season, take Vick’s 87 yards lost on 14 sacks, and subtract those from his rushing yards, because chances are he was at least partially at fault. That leaves him with 220 yards on the ground, which is very good, but then you must also consider how many drives those 14 sacks killed because it set the offense back into an unmanageable down and distance.

Foles has been sacked just twice so far this season. He’s getting the ball out of his hand nearly a full second faster (2.63 s). The lack of negative plays from the quarterback is a big reason why a higher percentage of possessions have resulted in touchdowns under Foles than Vick, because they don’t wind up having to convert as many impossible third downs.

Yards Per Play

The other dimension Vick adds that Foles allegedly doesn’t is big plays down the field. There’s no denying Vick has an incredible arm, and Foles’ deep ball has not exactly impressed. There is more than one way to pick up huge chunks of yards though.

In fact, there isn’t really any truth to the idea the aerial attack has been more explosive under Vick. The incumbent is averaging 9.0 yards per pass attempt this season, Foles 8.9. In 2012, Vick’s averaged 6.7 to Foles’ 6.4.

Foles may not be able to throw a ball 70 yards like Vick, but there is no evidence the offense is hampered in any way by that. Look at what happened when he made a simple, accurate, well-timed throw to Riley Cooper five yards away from the line of scrimmage in Tampa Bay—Cooper spun away from the defensive back and raced for 40-plus yards. There’s something to be said for that.

Maybe over time this number would favor Vick as Foles builds more of a portfolio, but for right now there really isn’t a significant difference here.

Age, Contract

Okay, age and contract aren’t necessarily statistics in the conventional sense, but they’re certainly relevant to this discussion. Vick is 33-years-old and playing on a one-year contract. Foles is 24 and has two years remaining. Which player has a better chance of contributing in Philadelphia next season? Two years from now? Five years from now?

What this debate ultimately boils down to is there is a young quarterback on the roster playing well and improving seemingly every week versus a flawed 11-year veteran whose ceiling is known. If Vick had clearly outplayed Foles either this year or last or even this summer during training camp and preseason, we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion, but Foles has been step-for-step with Vick at every turn.

Why not give the kid a chance and find out what they’ve got?

It doesn’t matter if Foles fails, because if history is any indication, Vick will too. Vick almost certainly is not the franchise’s quarterback of the future, let alone next year, but with Foles there is a chance they have something more. We just don’t know.

  1. Cyrus - Oct 14, 2013 at 3:22 PM

    Vick is the all-time leader in holding on to the ball because he’s good at the deep ball and he *can* hold the ball longer because he can avoid the sack.

    He may scramble around for 5 seconds in the backfield and complete a pass where another less mobile QB would have been sacked after 2.5-3 seconds.

    Gotta keep that in mind.

    Reply
    • Mark - Oct 14, 2013 at 3:29 PM

      So his mobility and ability to throw the ball is why he gets sacked all the time? Could’ve sworn it was because he doesn’t know how to read a defense properly and holds onto the ball too long.

      Reply
    • J Rock - Oct 14, 2013 at 5:40 PM

      Did you even read the article? Vick’s sack % is highest amonth active players. What sack is he avoiding?

      Reply
      • jerry jones - Oct 15, 2013 at 4:46 AM

        I love your comments , what sack is he avoiding ? classic Mike vick cant wait for his wine n brother to start up with his $hit ! start Nick Bench Vick. send them both down the river with some cheese to go with it ! send him some tweezers to pick the splinters out his a$$

    • Kelly Muldoon - Oct 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM

      I heard Michael Vick is going to be Traded Today. Michael Vick Said he Really Wants to be Traded Right Now. Michael Vick Said Go Head And Start Matt Barkley has the Starting Quarterback Right Now.. Michael Vick Said I am Leaving the Eagles Team Today. Michael Vick Said it is time for me to Leave the Eagles Team Right Now. Michael Vick Said it is time to let Matt Barkley Start Right Now. Michael Vick Said Since I am Leaving the Eagles team Today Go Head And Trade Me And Nick Foles to.

      Reply
      • Brandon - Oct 15, 2013 at 3:45 PM

        youre weird.

  2. nahroots - Oct 14, 2013 at 3:49 PM

    “Doesn’t the offense just run more smoothly without Vick in the game?”

    The Eagles were the #2 ranked offensive team before this game, Kulp. So, no, it doesn’t.

    Stop stroking your ego. I remember you creamed your pants after he beat Tampa last year too. Let it play out.

    Reply
    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:39 AM

      In yards, yes, they were. Just like last year, they racked up plenty of yards, then fizzled out at the 10 and kicked a FG

      Where did they rank in red zone?

      Do they lose to SD if Vick can convert in the redzone? Not even close. Do they lose in KC if he converts in the redzone, and doesn’t turn the ball over 3 times? Probably not.

      I don’t know if Foles is the answer or not. In fact, I think he probably isn’t. But I know for a fact that Vick is not. He had a good 7-8 game stretch in 2010, that’s it. He was awful at the end of 2010, and he’s been awful in the 2+ years since.

      They need to find out IF Foles is the guy, or if they have to focus on a QB in the draft. With this team having no real shot to contend for the next 2 years, the only logical reason to start a QB Vick’s age is if there is a clear and drastic drop off between him and the next guy on the roster. There is not. Foles should be the starter

      Reply
      • nahroots - Oct 15, 2013 at 9:07 AM

        They were 8th in points heading into the Tampa game, bub.

        Also – It took 5 games to deem Vick a RZ failure, but only 1 to claim Foles the RZ hero?

      • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:02 PM

        bub?

        They were ranked 27th in red zone offense heading into the Tampa game, and that looked better than it should of been because Foles raised the % a bit in the 2nd half of the tampa game, bub

        “Also” Vick has proven to be a RZ failure for 3 years. It didn’t start this year. They were near the top of the league in yards per game the last 2 years. But near the bottom of the league in RZ efficiency. But I’m sure that is someone else’s fault

  3. thekrisheim - Oct 14, 2013 at 3:52 PM

    can we talk about how chip closed out that game yesterday? that was the most exciting thing that happened in that game. smart play calling, good use of the clock and great execution from the offense. very impressive.

    Reply
    • True Dat - Oct 14, 2013 at 4:42 PM

      Seriously. When was the last Eagles game that the defense held the opponent on a 4th down and the offense knelt for the win?

      Reply
  4. willardj - Oct 14, 2013 at 6:20 PM

    Vick is better at driving the ball down the field because of his mobility. However, Foles is better in the red zone because of his height.

    You win games by being efficient in the red zone, not by putting up the most yardage.

    Thus, Foles should be the starting QB.

    Reply
    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:43 AM

      Foles is not better in the redzone because of his height. That is a myth. Guys like Brees and Wilson aren’t any bigger than Vick, and are great in the redzone.

      Foles is better than Vick in the redzone because he can throw a good timing route, and an accurate ball. Vick doesn’t release the ball until his receiver is open, because he’s not accurate. In the redzone, even if you do get open (which you usually don’t), it only lasts for a split second because the field is shrunk. The ball has to be put in a small window where only the receiver can make a play on it. Vick can’t, and never has been, able to do that. It’s been Foles strength since college

      Reply
      • willardj - Oct 16, 2013 at 12:27 PM

        Foles can see over the line of scrimmage and make short throws. Vick has trouble doing this not only because he throws side-arm and doesn’t stand tall (like Brees does) but because he is small. Because Vick can’t make short throws, he isn’t as good in the red zone. Foles can throw an accurate short route better than Vick not only because he releases the ball high, but also because he is taller and can throw over the line more easily.

        Obviously throwing mechanics are important. However, when it comes to the Foles and Vick discussion, their distinct physical attributes makes a big difference in the separation of their abilities. That’s why for a smaller QB, you either have to have great throwing mechanics (like Brees or Wilson), or be exceptionally fast and have a rocket arm (like Vick), in order to make it in the NFL.

      • somekat - Oct 16, 2013 at 3:24 PM

        Brees is no taller than vick, but somehow he excels at short throws. Vick’s problem isn’t that he is short, he problem is that he isn’t accurate

      • willardj - Oct 17, 2013 at 3:00 PM

        “Vick has trouble doing this not only because he throws side-arm and doesn’t stand tall (like Brees does) ”

        there’s the answer to your question

      • somekat - Oct 18, 2013 at 12:59 PM

        So it proves my point. He’s been in the league 12 years and still has poor mechanics. He’s a guy in the twilight of his career that’s till makes rookie mistakes

  5. Mostel - Oct 14, 2013 at 7:05 PM

    QB is a passing position. Any running by a QB is a gimmick and dooms the QB to a shortened career. RGKnee ring a bell?

    Reply
    • sfsu - Oct 14, 2013 at 7:21 PM

      Good point. If only Vick had no running ability, his NFL career would have been much longer than it will end up lasting

      Reply
  6. Bob - Oct 14, 2013 at 7:18 PM

    This needs to be posted everywhere. It’s a perfect argument. That’s not a hate on Vick, who has improved as a QB and person here.

    Seeing Foles play shows how every snap with Vick is wasted time for the Eagles future. Unless Kelly has seen enough to know Foles is his guy next season. Which I’d lean towards with all our defensive needs.

    Reply
  7. Mark - Oct 14, 2013 at 8:28 PM

    Its funny how the screen pass seems to be non-existant when Vick is in there. But when Tampa’ rush was getting too much we started killing them with the screen.

    Reply
    • Adam - Oct 14, 2013 at 8:46 PM

      Vick couldn’t throw the screen pass under Reid, either, which was one of his go to West Coast Offense plays with McNabb. Vick can’t see over the rushing linemen, which are in his face by design, on screen plays. If you mean the bubble screens out wide, then yes, those have been lacking this season, but that just may have been part of the game plan this week and not a reflection of the quarterback. Overall, this argument comes down to red-zone play. Vick drove the offense down the field plenty last year, too, and could not score. They don’t give wins based on yards gained.

      Reply
  8. marcus ramin - Oct 14, 2013 at 8:47 PM

    Foles played aginist the bucks, the 0-4 bucks he’s only played 2 games and that’s why his stats are so high. Vick is hands down the best I just want to win games, but don’t pull a SF. Move and do some coward move, look at alex smitth now.

    Reply
    • Sid - Oct 14, 2013 at 9:16 PM

      The Bucs’ defense is ranked #8 in the league. Who has Vick beaten this year? The Redskins. Who has Vick beaten in the last 3 years? Nobody.

      Reply
      • willh888 - Oct 14, 2013 at 10:53 PM

        I mean, you posed a smart ass question. The 2012 Ravens.

    • UrbanDee - Oct 15, 2013 at 1:36 AM

      Vick has had his time. Foles deserves to have his shot. Vick’s made his doe and he’s done some really good things during his day. I hope the guy gets out of debt and lives a pain free life after football. I just don’t think it’s beneficial for him to keep beating his body down at 33. He needs to think about life after football. All those hits have taken a toll on the tough VA native, I think he’d be a great analyst and a great backup. He can paid about 3mil a year base salary with incentives if he has to play due to an injury to the starter. These young guys are not taking any pity on Vick, of course, he wouldn’t have it any other way. If Vick was 23, I would say start him but he’s not, he’s 33 and his best days are behind him and Foles best days are ahead, we believe.

      Reply
    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:53 AM

      You mean the 0-4 bucs that hadn’t given up more than 23 points before last week, with 2 of the 4 being against he Saints and the Pats?

      The 0-4 bucs that held Brady to 220 yards passing?

      The 0-4 bucs that held Brees to a 67.5 passer rating?

      The 0-4 bucs that are the only team that has made Geno Smith look like a rookie?

      The 0-4 bucs that held the Cards to under 300 TOTAL yards?

      If that is the 0-4 bucs team that you are talking about, then yes, racking up just short of 300 yards, on 70% completion, with 3 tds in the air and 1 on the ground, AND 3 for 3 in the red zone (against a team that was #2 in the league in that category going in), is VERY impressive for a guy who only has 8 career starts, and the first 7 was playing behind a decimated line, with no weapons to speak of.

      Reply
    • Emil - Oct 15, 2013 at 7:49 AM

      EXACTLY, it’s like me claiming Vick is so great and deserves to be in the pro bowl after his stats from the first tow games of the season. NOT counting the fact Foles played against TWO WINLESS TEAMS, and averaged 8.0 yards a pass, because he is check down Charlie.

      You guys did the same with Kevin Kolb when he lit up the Falcons two years ago. Everyone was claiming he was better than Vick and he was more accurate than Vick and all that other garbage. Where is Kevin Kolb now? I guarantee you Kulp was saying the same thing about Kolb he is now saying about Foles.

      Foles is an OK QB, at best, with a baby arm, please kill this noise already!

      Reply
      • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:12 PM

        You could be right. Maybe Foles is an average QB at best. But you don’t know that, it’s not possible to know that. It’s funny how Vick apologists love to point to how his numbers were so bad last year because he line was hurt, but then use last years numbers to “prove” Foles can’t be the guy when he had an even worse line, no Jackson, no McCoy and no Celek. How does that explain 2 years ago, when the line was healthy and Vick was just as awful? Or the end of 2010, when once the Giants figured him out, he played awful in the last 3 weeks, including 2 straight blowout losses to the Cowboys to end the season?

        Kolb is more accurate than Vick. He’s just soft. He gets hit and he gets shook, some guys are like that. How did they find that out? By playing him. Saying Vick makes the offense better because he can run is fine. I don’t agree with it, I think any addition he adds with his legs, he more than takes away with his inability to diagnose a blitz, or throw a timing route. The numbers speak for themselves, his self proclaimed “goal” was to hit 60%, most NFL teams wouldn’t find that acceptable, but it’s what he HOPES he can get

        I like Vick personally, he’s made some mistakes, but in his time here, he really seems like a guy that’s learned his lesson, and become a better person to me. But liking the guy (or if I didn’t like the guy) doesn’t make me blind to what’s going on, on the field.

  9. Dave - Oct 14, 2013 at 9:06 PM

    They should both get PT. They’re both good, play them both! WIlbon said the same thing today on PTI. Play them friggin both. I like Vick most of the time, then in the red zone, Foles. DUH

    Reply
    • jumpinbreadcastle - Oct 15, 2013 at 9:59 AM

      make sense

      Reply
  10. Nicky G - Oct 14, 2013 at 9:25 PM

    Andrew…GREAT ARTICLE pal!
    The numbers know no emotion. Just the facts is what any coach looks at. You win by punching the ball into the end zone, when you’re in the red zone. Bottom line!
    Yes, the offense the last 6 1/2 quarters is running more efficient. A variety of personnel are now touching the ball. Chip said today;…”Riley’s been open a lot this year, we just haven’t gotten him the ball”.
    This kid is reading through his progressions, not looking for the first option then running.
    Eagle fans…”Bookmark” this article, read it a few times a day, til you get the point. Foles gets the points. He deserves another look with a new coach (Kelly) and a new line, not last years drek!

    Reply
  11. Colin P - Oct 14, 2013 at 10:54 PM

    Apparently you, like yahoo, like to make dumb threads just to gain more views by being controversial. Anyone on ESPN or with any intelligence knows Vick should be starting quarterback. But I guess that is why you are stuck writing on websites like this. Foles has looked good against two winless teams. Vick has faced two undefeated teams. Apparently you don’t understand the significance there. The offense is tailored toward Vick. What was Foles record last year, o yeah 1-5. He looked terrible. The pundits back then called for him just like you, and he failed. But you need something to write about so here we go again. All Foles does is throw scared little checkdown routes. He presents no extra dimensions that defenses need to plan for. Yes he is more accurate, but as I have said it is because, as was shown in Giants game, he throws little 5 yard passes. Vick helped the eagles lead the league in rushing. Mccoy killed it because of the read option. He has a better deep ball and can throw a perfect spiral. Not to mention his defense has played absolutely terrible causing the Eagles to lose. Vick didn’t throw a pick or fumble until they played chiefs in week 3. He has corrected his turnover problems. Foles is better in the redzone, I would agree. Yes Vick is older and probably won’t be the future after the next couple of years. But everyone can agree Foles isn’t the future either because of his limited talent, as people on ESPN were laughing about earlier today. It is about winning right now, and Vick gives them a better chance, no question asked. Even Mccoy agrees that Vick gives them a chance to win more than Foles. But nice try, only you and the haters on here, who seem not to know anything about Philly, agree with one another.

    Reply
    • Coln P - Oct 14, 2013 at 10:57 PM

      Oh also forgot to mention that eagles have had some of the most drops this year out of any team when with Vick, something they have brought up multiple times during the games.

      Reply
      • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 3:08 AM

        Other things you forgot to mention

        Vick fumbled against the redskins for a TD by Hall

        Vick had the same exact record as Foles in his last 6 games played last year, 1-5. But he had more weapons (Jackson and McCoy were both out by the time Foles started, as well as the entire line and Celek), and 11 years of experience under his belt. Yet a rookie, with no experience, but up slightly better numbers.

        People at ESPN are idiots. They are the same guys that said the fact that Foles walked right down the field in Denver didn’t matter, because it was garbage minutes. Then said the Giants game didn’t matter because their defense is awful (even though he had better number than Vick who AGAIN couldn’t score in the redzone), and it would be a different story against a good TB defense, and are now saying it doesn’t matter because they are winless. Talking heads love Vick, because he is easy to talk about

        McCoy ran the ball for 115 yards, almost 5 a carry, and had almost 200 total yards, against the best defense they’ve played this year. The read option is not needed for him to be effective, just like it wasn’t 2 years ago when he ran for over 1500. Besides, Vick has only ran the ball out of the read option about a dozen times this year, he’s fumbled twice, and got hurt twice. It’s not exactly the most potent weapon

        He has not corrected his turnover problems, He is still turning the ball over, on average, more than once a game. Just because he’s not a fumble machine, does not mean he’s taking care of the ball.

        I mean, if your gonna tell people how they are “dumb” and “haters” you should at least know what you are talking about. But then again, I wouldn’t expect you to when you quote “the guys on ESPN”

      • Andrew - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:32 PM

        I love how the Vickers think that the fact that our receivers have trouble catching Vick’s throws is a feather in Vick’s cap.

    • Bob - Oct 15, 2013 at 12:04 AM

      McCoy doesn’t need a read option look to be an elite running back.

      I’d also take a QB who is smart enough to use his checkdowns, gets the ball out and avoid turnovers.

      If this were Vick’s 2nd year, he should be the starter. But it’s year 11 and he’s reached his window. Foles has a huge upside

      Reply
  12. deang - Oct 14, 2013 at 11:06 PM

    I think I’ll go with the easy answer and that Chip Kelly will probably make a better decision than any of us and the author. Also, if it were all about numbers then Mike Mamula would’ve been a hall of famer.

    Reply
    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 3:12 AM

      Horrible comparison. Mamula never put up numbers, not even in college.

      If it were all about workouts, then Mamula would be a hall of famer.

      Numbers are exactly how they decide who gets in the hall of fame. They are also exactly how you find out who is going to win you more games.

      Reply
  13. Gregg - Oct 14, 2013 at 11:46 PM

    That article was right on and I totally agree! And have been arguing the same points for a while now. Bunch of racists on here, you know it’s because Foles is white lol. ( sarcasm )

    Reply
  14. Rocky 72 - Oct 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM

    I swear I have been eagles fan for 42 years and I am only 41 which means yes people I listened to games in my mothers belly while have psyco eagles mom amniotic fluid induced visions of a young Dicky v, Bill bergy , Harold Carmichael, Wilbert Montgomery and, coach Herm making the birds respectable bowl contenders in only my tenth year of life lol. But I digress, My point in all that was that I truly have green blood running through my viens, and there is one thing that makes that ugly race card come out in even the most die hard 700 level democratic fans its a white qb sitting behind a black in philly. The sad thing is evry white qb the media has pressured to replace a starting black qb in philly has excuse the pun dropped the ball. Lets see we never built an offense of a Donovan like or even this current group for Randall,. yet he made the egles front page stuff for almost 11 years and he never had a drug free chris cater. a d Jackson. a to. but some racist media types in philly (W.I.P take a bow)found a way to get the birds to start Jimmy mac over randall when J mac was clearly at the I just want a check stage of his career . Then suddenly when he had top offensive weapons (Moss. CC, Jake, Rob smith) not only did he have his best season ever hed was the shot is caller on a nfc championship game team, they blew every point and offensive stat that ever mattered out of the water. Hmm then there Rod Pete lets see decent but not H.O.F yet he got yanked for hoying or was it detmer , lol doesent matter they both sucked,and lets not forget how Big 5 Donnie Mac holds every eagles QB stat that matters. No he didn’t win the big one but if fans can acknowledge the greatness of Jim Kelly and the bills getting to but losing five bowls, they dam well better do the same for big 5 years down the line cause contrary to racist boneheaded media types kevin Kolb was not the answer( head scratch) he didn’t even understand the question.And now here we go with mr all I do is beat loosing teams foles stepping into to a role held by a balck qb that already had itself (due in large part to vick and McCoy) ranked the #2 offensive unit in the game, all foles had to do was not mess any of the 100000000 screen passes and dinks they never call for vick and we knew a qb controversy was coming. Just look at it this way if we truly stood behind randall and later with mcnabb maybe Buddy (I refuse to bench randall) Ryan could have gotten us a ring, and
    Donovan would not have had to wait till big red knew his job was on the line to get a whiff of honestly balanced firepower .I am not saying foles should not continue to be groomed for future leadership ,I’M just saying not now, give mike a chance to win with a coach who wont throw passes when its 1st and goal on the 1 four times(/u chiefs coach that’s right love you to death but you) for the record I would be ok seeing foles in the red zone a lot this year I must call a spade a spade that LeBron type frame of his is a head coaches wet dream. I love vick but winning I love more, and if mike has another three or four game stint of looking and playing like the current eli manning then by all means yank him I would feel like Chip Jeff and the team gave him a fair shot and it just didn’t click. But a man who had his offense ranked two should not loose his job to injury unless someone can promise us all that this will be Bledsoe Brady all over again I love you mike but if Tricky Nicky can get us to the promise land like brady did for the pats not only would I sell you up the tiver I would keep the paddles lol. Fly eagles Fly on the Road to……………

    Reply
    • Chutley - Oct 15, 2013 at 9:14 AM

      Stop it

      Reply
    • 2sentz - Oct 15, 2013 at 9:14 AM

      OK that was way more entertaining than fakeWIPguy, but dude paragraphs are a thing for a reason. Help a guy out here.

      You dropped 10,000 words to complain about white QB’s being selected to replace injured or ineffective black QB’s due to perceived racism, but curiously overlooked that every one of those black QB’s start out by replacing white QB’s. And Kelly is “calling” more screens for Foles than for Vick? Do you understand how a screen is most often a check-down option used at QB’s discretion?

      Look very few true fans wouldn’t put Randall and Donovan at the top of the team’s HOF, but at the end of the day how significant is that fact if we still don’t have a guy who can take the team all the way?

      Reply
  15. Darren - Oct 15, 2013 at 12:51 AM

    The most unwritten stat it’s amazing how when Vick is in there it’s no wide reciever can open , foles plays the 8th ranked defense and he hits about 9 different wide recievers , all the ones that can’t get open with Vick
    Smart accurate qb wins not qbs that can’t read a defense

    Reply
    • UrbanDee - Oct 15, 2013 at 1:59 AM

      I take offense to Vick’s intelligence being questioned. When 6’5″, 6’6″ LB’s or DE’s are coming at Vick with their hands up he has to find another passing lane. He can’t climb the pocket because he needs to be able to see over the wall of blockers in front of him. The closer he is to his linemen the bigger his obstacles become and the more his vision is blocked which is why he gets in trouble. He will never be able to climb the pocket and keep his eyes down-field. Vick throws interceptions in between the hashes mostly when he’s pressure because its taller bodies blocking his complete line of sight. He’s not a dummy as some people have implied,and when he doesn’t have bodies in his face and can see the field clearly he makes good throws. Unfortunately, in the NFL, the QB is going to get pressured and have hands up when throwing the ball so he has to learn how to maneuver around those things to make plays and not turn the ball over ala Drew Brees.

      Reply
      • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 3:59 AM

        he didn’t question vicks intelligence. I take offense to your clearly biased point of view

        those same linemen are coming at Wilson and Brees, and they can read a defense and get eh ball where it needs to be

        Vick throws picks and fumbles because he has never been more than an average qb and an off the scales athlete. Now he’s just a good athlete, and a below average qb

  16. UrbanDee - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:11 AM

    It appears that Vick can’t read a defense because he doesn’t throw the ball to open WR’s and TE’s but he’s able see DJax open way down the field on go patterns. Vick will never tell anyone he can’t see open receivers but its obvious to me he can’t see the whole field all the time because his height prevents him. I like Foles and want him to start, he deserves the chance to start, he’s earned it. Vick outplayed him during the preseason but Foles has taken his game to another level. Vick is completing only 53% percent of his passes and running for big yardage, those stats are eerily similar to his days in ATL and 53% is horrible by any NFL standard.

    Reply
    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 4:03 AM

      he can’t see? why can brees see? why can Wilson see? why could steve young always see? Does being tall help? of course. Is being tall needed? Not even a little bit

      these are just excuses. Vick can’t throw a timing pass, and can’t throw accurately. Go patterns don’t matter because the WR has plenty of time to adjust. Short routes need to be on the money. He doesn’t release the ball until after his WR is open, which is what rookies and bad qbs do.

      Reply
  17. somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:30 AM

    The last paragraph in this article puts it best. There is no reason to start Vick the rest of the way. It doesn’t benefit the Eagles at all. I’ve used this quote before this year, and I probably will again, but The only person associated with the Philadelphia Eagles that benefits long term from Mike Vick starting is Mike Vick.

    This team will not be ready for 2 years. Defense is just too bad. Vick will not still be a top tier QB 2 years from now…he’s not a top tier QB now. He is what he is, he can move the ball, but when the field shrinks and he has to be accurate, he stalls out and settles for FG’s. He’s been in the league 12 years, he’s not suddenly going to learn how to read a defense, diagnose a blitz and hit his hot route, or throw and accurate timing pass. If he was going to learn any of that, it would of happened by now. He’s a superior athlete with below average QB skills, who hasn’t progressed mentally, but has regressed physically.

    Is Foles the future? I don’t think so. But how do we know this? The Eagles are not Mike Vick, he is just a short term member of the Eagles. This draft is stocked with QB’s. Now is the time to find out if we need one, or if we have one. Again, I don’t think he’s a franchise QB, but I think he can be a very good QB. Chip has said that’s all he needs, maybe he’ll decide he doesn’t need a QB. If that’s the case, you should be able to get a better player in the draft, because so many QB’s are going to go early. If you don’t need one, you can get a steal at another spot. Or maybe he plays well, but Chip decides he’s not the guy. You put a 24 year old QB with 2 years left on his rookie deal, who has proven he can light it up at this level, you will get a 2nd or 3rd for him easily. Or maybe he plays terribly once the league gets more tape on him (even though they have half a season already), but then at least they know he’s not the guy, and they need to go in another direction.

    Any way you slice it, starting Foles clears up much of the picture of what will or will need to be done at the QB spot over the next 5-7 years (Either him, or showing it’s not him and they have to look in the draft). Starting Vick does nothing but leave you with a huge question mark after this season, and the possibility of going into next season with you MOST experienced QB having 8 starts under his belt (Barkley and unnamed rookie being the others), but still having no idea if 2 of the 3 can really play at this level

    Long term, there is no argument

    Reply
    • nyphilsphan - Oct 17, 2013 at 7:59 AM

      Thanks for summing up. I’ve been saying the exact same things in scattered comments on this site since Spring.

      I’ve come to the conclusion that Mike Vick that inspires fandom 100% separate from the The Philadelphia Eagles. Considering all the factors (past, present, and most importantly, future), I find it impossible that a true Birds fan could decide that Mike Vick should be starting for this football team.

      This is not a referendum on Mike Vick the player or the man: it is an insight into the future of the team and the value of finding out where Foles (or Barkley) fits into it. Comparing Foles to Vick in any way- stats, strength of opponent, etc.- is a complete irrelevancy and misses the point entirely.

      Reply
  18. Emil - Oct 15, 2013 at 7:52 AM

    And another thing Vick has dropped ball(S) IN THE RED ZONE, by Desean, Celek, Avant, and Ertz. This is why Vick’s redzone % is not as high.

    Reply
    • TJO - Oct 15, 2013 at 2:36 PM

      Foles is throwing to the same guys.

      Reply
      • Emil - Oct 16, 2013 at 7:45 AM

        Yea Vick threw to those guys when he put up 400 yards and 3 td’s against the Chargers. But what has that got to do when guys drop balls in the redzone?

      • TJO - Oct 16, 2013 at 9:03 AM

        All I’m saying is that the Red Zone targets have not changed, the person throwing them the ball has. He was also throwing to them when he put up 1 TD each vs KC and DEN.

        I’m not sure why but it could be a multitude of things. Maybe the receivers don’t like Vick, maybe holding onto the ball to long could disrupt the timing of the receivers routes giving the defenders a chance, maybe throwing the ball 100 mph for a 6 yrd pass isn’t always good, maybe the playcalling sucks when Vick is in there, maybe the receivers just have an off day. Who knows.

    • somekat - Oct 15, 2013 at 3:01 PM

      more excuses. Foles has the same guys catching balls for him. Maybe it has something to do with the balls being better thrown from Foles? Nah, it’s always someone else’s fault

      Reply
  19. RellHef - Oct 15, 2013 at 8:40 AM

    The last 6 qtrs our defense have forced 5 turnovers with both games comin down to the last qtr(two close games) my point is we won those games n scored point cuz of those turnovers…give Vick some turnovers n the results would be the same!!! Foles played two winless teams n had a hard time beatin them

    Reply
    • TJO - Oct 15, 2013 at 10:18 AM

      So Vick has played 3 teams with a winning record, and lead the team to a loss each time. How can Foles do worse than leading the team to a loss?

      Reply
    • eaglegreen - Oct 15, 2013 at 5:58 PM

      Vicks done

      Reply
    • eaglegreen - Oct 15, 2013 at 5:59 PM

      Vick done.

      Reply
  20. Shawn - Oct 15, 2013 at 10:33 AM

    Funny… how the Giants had no CBs – and Vick had 0 passing yards in the 1st Quarter… so, isn’t that a stat we can talk about. But if you want to say – Vick moved the ball – only from running – but he got injured. Isn’t that a stat..er.. I mean FACT of Vick’s career?

    Vick gets figured out by d-coordinators, so he holds the ball too long — gets injured at some point – and that’s that. How many yrs do you need to see the same movie before you realize that the ending is the same!

    Reply
  21. charlie d - Oct 15, 2013 at 1:17 PM

    who gives a shit? what’s the point of arguing? not one of you idiots or the author will actually make the decision….and not one of the decision-makers is reading this article or your idiotic posts. Go do something productive…..

    Reply
    • sfsu - Oct 15, 2013 at 1:30 PM

      Internet commenter tells internet commenters to do something productive

      Reply
  22. eaglegreen - Oct 15, 2013 at 5:56 PM

    Pleaz Chip if Foles lights up Dallas then end the QB debate and name him the starter. Under Vick the team lost 3 in a row under Foles they’ve won 2 come from behind victories

    Reply
  23. Jimk - Oct 14, 2013 at 9:16 PM

    Go kill yourself, stop advertising on this site

    Reply

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